FROM STENO: CAROL KESTER BONDURANT

ATTENDEES:
[MICHAEL.M]
[[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7]
[[BILL] B.DUERR]
[TIGLON.G]
[[PETER I.] PIANNINI]
[DIVEMASTER]
[W.BLOMGREN]
[[LARRY] LEROSENMAN]
[[MARK] M.H.FOSTER]
[HERIBE]
[MORE....]

MINUTES:
<MICHAEL.M> Hi there, Dave!  Welcome!

<PRESS7> Hi Michael, Larry and M.H!  Is there a way to repeat a line
before I send it?  The overwrite makes me 'look' illiterate!

<MICHAEL.M> Dave - No, you can't, unfortunately.  Do not look at the
screen while you type.

<PRESS7> That is a little better.

<MICHAEL.M> Would you like to wait about 5 minutes to allow folks to log
on form the west coast?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> OK, well what is everyone's interest here?  I
want to know what you know and what you want to know!

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> OK, that is great!  But, we can use the time to
get an intro on who is here and what will happen.

<[LARRY] LEROSENMAN> Dave, I am a systems programmer on the mainframes,
and am also a C-128 owner.  I am interested in anything to do with
computers, etc.

<[BILL] B.DUERR> Dave, I'm into CP/M on a Kaypro.  Got a BBS for the
local Kaypro user group.

<MICHAEL.M> I think most folks want information on BYE.INS.  How to use
what it is, what is  needed... etc.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Bill, that sounds interesting, you likely have
already got a BYE going on your Kaypro, and Larry, have you started
anything in the way of BYE yet?

<[MARK] M.H.FOSTER> Dave, I am new to CPM, am a CIS student, like to
learn about new systems.

<[LARRY] LEROSENMAN> Not yet, but willing to be a guinea pig for
teaching me. I know nothing about running a BBS, but could, I guess.

<[PETER I.] PIANNINI> Dave, I'm trying to get BYE up on a C128 but seem
to have modem problems.

<[BILL] B.DUERR> My system is down right now (lightning strike), but i
was using BYE3 (39) and XMODEM, and a Basic RBBS.

<[LARRY] LEROSENMAN> (That modem you showed me at HP???)

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> BILL: # Tres ancient.

<[BILL] B.DUERR> I was planning to upgrade to NUBYE, KMD, and PBBS

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Bill - forget about NU BYE.  Get BYE510, the real
thing.

<MICHAEL.M> Okay folks, everyone ready?   [Banging gavel]

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> OK bye me.  Lets get some lively chat started.

<MICHAEL.M> If you have a question, Type /RAISE.  Comment?  type: "!".

<MICHAEL.M> We would like to welcome Dave Giunti to our 2nd C-128 CP/M
Conference!...

<MICHAEL.M> Dave is here to discuss the C-128 and its use with RCP/M
systems...

<MICHAEL.M> He is currently running a BBS in San Francisco in CP/M
mode...

<MICHAEL.M> Using PBBS, and his own revised BYE.INSERT...

<MICHAEL.M> Dave - would you like to say a few words about yourself and
your BBS before we start taking questions?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Sure!!! Gab Gab

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> I am a CIS student, and first got an Osborne 1
with CP/M while they were new machines and learned a great deal about
programming in CP/M on the thing...

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> I am fluent in several assemblers Z80 and 8080 as
well as several HL languages...

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> The BYE insert for 510 was actually the 4th that
I did but because of several OS problems (in BYE) the INS for 510 is the
first to make it out the door.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> I guess that is an intro!

<MICHAEL.M> Thanks!  Now, which version of the .INSert is available,
and...

<MICHAEL.M> How far along is it?  Has it solved all the clock problems?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Well i think that you have the final version.  It
hasn't changed since I released it.  The NUBYE version is the same .INS
in all but the comments that i added.  The clock is another insert...

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> .. I am working on the clock problems and have a
working version (time but the date is still not good if the system
doesn't get called for a day or so).  I have a handle on the problem but
I'm not ready to release a finished clock.  I'll

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> keep the current version I am using on my system
until I have one finished enough to go in the library for national
distribution.

<MICHAEL.M> Dave - because many C-128 users are unfamiliar with CP/M,
they do not know...

<MICHAEL.M> What is needed to run a BBS in CP/M mode.  Could you address
this?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Sure...

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7>   A working bye is the most helpful software
addition. BYE for CPM+ is an extension of the system itself (an RSX)
that insinuates itself at the top of the TPA (where programs run) and
intercepts system calls (Call 5 in cpm parlance) and redirects them as
needed to allow complete use of the system through a modem...

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> You don't need to get BYE configured but you have
to mimic most of the functions it performs in whatever BBS or program
you use to create the 'remote' system.  So it saves steps to just use
BYE.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> A BBS of any form just sits like a regular
program in this extended environment and talks as though it was on a
normal screen and keyboard... It's very modular.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> GA

<MICHAEL.M> So, BYE intercepts and redirects.  Then you add a message
system like PBBS to take care of the message base.  In other words...

<MICHAEL.M> callers can log onto the board and either run the PBBS or in
effect run *any* program on your disk?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Yes just about any 'regular' CPM program can be
run remotely, regular meaning that it uses the standard    CALL  5
(equals BDOS) format to use the system, and doesn't directly mung around
with the system.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> ELIZA or ADVENTURE or CHESS or your data base.
and even some word processors.

<MICHAEL.M> This is all very unfamiliar to commodore owners.  What you
are saying is...

<MICHAEL.M> That bye is actually the file that is always there to
control things before and after a program (or the PBBS) is used,
Correct?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Yes, it is a resident system extension... in C=
parlance it is sort of like one of those IRQ intercept routines, except
in the non interrupt driven CPM environment, it works by position.
Things in CP/M are called rather than interrupted.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Let me show you by address

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> 0  OS  100H                    TPAEND   $FFFF

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7>  5 is the Call.  At 5 you call the OS dispatch.
BYE insinuates itself by changing the address at 6 & 7 to point at its
dispatch table so when 5 is called, the CALL goes to BYE where it sees
if anything can be done with this call, does it or passes it on to the
regular OS.

<MICHAEL.M> Okay, so tell me, a Commodore owner, why I should run a BBS
in CP/M mode?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> I suppose because you would like to run one of
the very advanced systems available to CPM users. or the fabulous PD
utilities that exist for CPM FTS systems.

<MICHAEL.M> Thanks Dave!  Bill, you have a question?

<[BILL] B.DUERR> I just wanted to add, you do not have to run a public
access BBS.  BYE is useful, if you have a Laptop and you want to upload
a file to your home system.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Yes it is Bill.  There are options to require a
password to get on so you can run a secure system without any BBS.

<MICHAEL.M> So then BYE is actually a term program (in commodore terms)?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> No not exactly a term program.  It can have a
term run in it but it allows remote operation.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Go on Bill...

<[BILL] B.DUERR> It's a remote CP/M system (RCP/M).

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Exactly  !!!

<[BILL] B.DUERR> I.E.; You can operate your computer away from home.

<MICHAEL.M> I see.  I am asking because Commodorians are used to a term
being a term...

<MICHAEL.M> and a BBS being a BBS (not modular).

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> I'm not familiar enough with C= BBS to know about
modularity there.

<MICHAEL.M> Could you tell us about UHURU, your RCP/M, Dave?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Well that is the name I've given to the worlds
first C=128 RCP/M. It is a driver...

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> It has PBBS because that was easy to get up.  I
have plans to write a FIDO compatible system soon... That is why the
clock is important.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> I use a hayes compat  so the 1670 has been the
big problem for others wanting BYE...

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> As the .INS stands it will run on any completely
Hayes compatible, but the 1670 is not quite compatible.  I found a few
things out last night!!!

<MICHAEL.M> Do tell.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Well first of all has anyone out there got the
1670 and tried to port BYE to it and the 128???

<MICHAEL.M> I have one, but haven't tried, No.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Anyone else?

<MICHAEL.M> This conference will be archived, so please go on.

<HERIBE> Not I, I've called your BBS, though, remember Heriberto from
DC, Dave?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7>   OK   it seems that IMODEM and B5IM  have to be
YES for any hope of working!  I use them as no because it makes the code
much simpler to not need the 'smarts'  Hi Heriberto!

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> But there are other problems in saying YES. NODTR
must be YES as well!  (No DTR line on the 1670)!

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> and then you have to trace NODTR through the code
to see what it controls.  Well you see, the problems with the 1670 are
complex and I don't have a 1670, and the need to configure the thing.
If I had one you would already have the

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> mods needed, I was discussing them in the hope
that someone with that 'thing' would try and implement the changes.

<MICHAEL.M> If i get a 1670 to you, will you rewrite the thing for it?

<[dave giunti] press7> Maybe I would,  it would be some work, but with
good DOC, it would be relatively easy... easier than getting the first
.INS going anyway.

<MICHAEL.M> Thanks Dave.  Peter, you have a question?

<[PETER I.] PIANNINI> Yes.  What modem do you use.  I had no luck with a
Volks 12 or a Hayes 1200.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Hayes 1200 would be easy, the Volks I think has
DTR problems too...  I use a Prometheus 1200 and a CTS2400 (not working
in CPM at 2400 yet).

<[PETER I.] PIANNINI> Which interface and how configured?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> I have the Omintronics, configured backwards...
though you should have the DTR HI and handshake on 20.  The other two
switches depend on your cable, that is the backwards part for me.

<[PETER I.] PIANNINI> OK.  But that seems to put the C128 at 300 baud
with the modem at 1200 and nothing happens after carrier detect.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> The speed sets are done in BYE and the modem
either tells bye at what speed it is connected or you test (like I do)
for a valid <CR> <LF> or Ctrl C.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Peter, I think it is easier to set bye to be dumb
and set the switches so that it autoanswers.

<[PETER I.] PIANNINI> How do you mean set bye dumb?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> For the Hayes it is easy.  Just say no to IMODEM
and B5IM and set the switches as directed in BYE510.DOC.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> I could U/L my first sections with the equates
for show and tell???

<MICHAEL.M> That would be great, Dave.  Upload anything, and post
anything.

<[PETER I.] PIANNINI> That would be very helpful!

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> OK, I have it done to run PBBS though, you would
have to edit out the COMFILE and time stuff.

<[BILL] B.DUERR> Can we talk about file transfer for a sec.  I assume
you use KMD.  Are there any problems with that?  Timing for instance.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> I have no problems with KMD on either the 1541 or
the 1571.  There can be timing problems with KMD timing out (1
CYCLE),... there is an option in KMD to set the size for the amount of
file it grabs or stashes... set that to 2k or 4k and you will have no
problems... other systems are as slow as C= here too!

<MICHAEL.M> Bill - does that answer you, or was there a follow up?

<[BILL] B.DUERR> Yes, Thanks.  I asked because of the problems we're
having here on GEnie.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Bill, the size in KMD is the answer.  TIG have
you started anything ?

<TIGLON.G> Dave, No... don't plan on it quite yet.

<MICHAEL.M> Dave - one of the biggest problems Commodore folks have is
learning how to use/install an .INS file.  Can you review that?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Sure...

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7>   There are several places parked in the file for
an .INSert.  I broke the file BYE510C.ASM up into three sections with
pip (using the start and stop at string options),... this made it easier
to edit with VDE.COM (That is here in the stacks).

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Then I edited the first section with the equates
(many times!!!) and then below the equates there is a +++++++++  install
your system dependent insert here,

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> That is where you copy (with the wordprocessor)
the .INS.  Following this is where the CLOCK.INS goes in.  You just add
the clock insert to the file.  I use PIP to reassemble the separate
files into one large one and then assemble it with RMAC...

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Actually you can break the file just at the point
where the B5C8-2E.INS goes, and use PIP to assemble the file like:
 PIP A:BYE5.ASM=B1,B5C8-2E.INS,CLOCK.INS,B2,B3

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Those are two ways to put the .INSerts in.

<MICHAEL.M> Thanks, and there *are* DOCS describing this, correct?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> the process is described in BYE510.DOC and the
use of PIP is covered in the DR offer book, and better in Thom Hogan's
CPM User Guide (3D Edition).

<MICHAEL.M> Peter - Question?

<[PETER I.] PIANNINI> B5C8-2E?  My version has no 'E' last dated 7/21/86
is this the most recent insert?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Well there is really only one.  If it is the one
that George Peace edited it is a good insert.  While developing i sent
him a 1e and later uped to 2E.  The E is something i add to most of my
personal files.

<MICHAEL.M> When would you say that a complete working INS for the clock
will be ready?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> The complete machine insert for BYE is out!  The
clock is something else, and not needed to run BYE without a timed BBS.

<MICHAEL.M> But the clock is an integral part of the system, no?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> No the clock can be done without.  It do time the
online usage, but it really isn't needed if you have a small operation.
As i have it running now, it works but the date function can fail if the
system isn't called more than twice a day... I want it to run even if no
one calls!

<MICHAEL.M> Don't we all?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Well I want the FIDO compatible system, and that
sort of wants to know what date it actually is.  The 24 hour clock is
good, but it doesn't automatically update the day unless you
intervene...

<MICHAEL.M> Peter - You had a comment?

<[PETER I.] PIANNINI> Yes... MBBS will run with or without a clock.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Great,  does it have a built in timer (tick
counter) or does it use the one that can be built into bye (without a
clock) ?

<[PETER I.] PIANNINI> No timer... users just aren't limited in time and
date has to manually be set.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> That is the same as the older RBBS35, and there
are few problems here.  BYE can still be set to timeout after so much
non activity.

<MICHAEL.M> Bill - you're up again.

<[BILL] B.DUERR> What does "BYE" stand for?  (This is a fine time to
ask!!!)

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> I'm not sure if it is an acronym.  It is just
something easy to remember to type to log off the system,  actually the
code (for CPM+) is contained in something called B5-DRIV3.COM  called by
BYE if it isn't already there!

<TIGLON.G> (Big Yellow Envelope Bill)

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Envelope!  This is electric!

<[BILL] B.DUERR> OK (I used it so long, but no one really seems to
know.)

<MICHAEL.M> Dave - what would you tell a novice as far as setting up an
RCP/M?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Well, get as easy a one as possible to set up,
that means a non 1670 for now, the DR offer and perhaps, as has always
been, a friend with one to lead you through the process.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> I had the fog SysOps, Irv Hoff, George Peace, and
Jack Brown to help me.

<MICHAEL.M> Bill - go ahead...

<[BILL] B.DUERR> Any hot tips, new programs, etc  from your BBS.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> But UHURA is starting to replicate and there is
one branch in Milwaukee somewhere and the on-line-NY at 516-466-4625 (1
Meg of 128 code on line) may be carrying the latest UHURA ware soon...
Ask the SysOp.

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> No nothing real hot, yet uploaded, it's mostly
been talk about the 1670.  I have a complete Z80 macro development
system (PD) up on C0:  The Doc for the dbugger is on line too.  Neat
system.  and a few little things like the clock code on B:  and
VDE321.LBR in A1:

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> That should be VDE231.

<MICHAEL.M> Anyone else with questions for Dave?

<MICHAEL.M> Anything you'd like to cover before we end here, dave?

<[DAVE GIUNTI] PRESS7> Ok,   any one else curious about anything re the
128 and CPM BBS development?

<MICHAEL.M> Well, I would like to thank you for being here!  it was a
pleasure and...

<MICHAEL.M> And informative experience!

<[BILL] B.DUERR> Dave, thanks a lot for BYE, and Mike, thanks a lot for
putting this thing together!!!

<MICHAEL.M> <Applause!!>

<[PETER I.] PIANNINI> Thanks for the help.  Maybe we'll all see C128
RCP/M network soon!

<MICHAEL.M> Thank you, Carol!  Nite, sweetie!

